PF Episode 20: How Fitness Benefits Your Mental Health

How Fitness Benefits Your Mental Health

Jen: Welcome to Practically Fit, Real Fitness Over 40. I'm Jen Chamberlain.

Alex: And I'm Alex Johnson.

Jen: And today we're going to talk about how fitness, and particularly exercise, can impact your mental health. I know that for me personally, exercise really helps improve my mood, deal with stress, and get through challenging situations. It's been one of the key motivating factors in maintaining at least a somewhat regular fitness regimen.

Alex: Yeah, absolutely, Jen. And I think for both of us, this is a really important topic, similar to the gut health podcast. We're going to open up and share our own experiences with anxiety today, so I'm really excited to have this discussion.

Jen: Yeah, absolutely. Alex and I are going to talk a little later about our own experiences with fitness and mental health. But first, we are so excited to have our very first guest on the program, Brannon LaForce. Brannon is a licensed professional counselor, MSLPC, LPC, LCPC. I think I got all those acronyms right. He practices in several states as well as a few countries. So, Brannon, tell us a little bit about yourself and your practice.

Meet Our Guest: Brannon LaForce

Brannon: Sure. I've been in practice for 34 years. I started in a private practice in a small town in Alabama, and then eventually, after 17 years, moved to Australia and worked for the Queensland government with intellectually disadvantaged adults with challenging behaviors. Prior to that, I spent a couple of years working in Kansas with forensic patients. I've also spent some time working with genocide survivors in the country of Rwanda. Currently, I live on an island in the Persian Gulf called Bahrain. It's a kingdom. And I support sailors in the U.S. Navy here on the Navy base.

Jen: That's fantastic, Brannon. Thanks so much for telling us a little more. I know in particular that you practice a type of therapy called DBT, which stands for dialectical behavioral therapy. This is something that's actually helped me quite a bit in quite a few areas of my life, so I just want to unpack a couple of those terms. "Dialectical," to me, means the understanding that two things can be true at once. For example, you're not either a complete failure or a total success, right? For those of us who struggle with all-or-nothing thinking, that can be really helpful to acknowledge. I also think it's really at the heart of this podcast, because we call it Practically Fit because it's the idea that you can be fit and healthy but still enjoy the food you like and have time for your family and friends. You don't have to be a fanatic to be fit and healthy. So that's the dialectical part. And then it's also behavioral, meaning that you can take small actions that can impact the way you think and how you feel. That's another really key topic, and that's what we're going to dig into today: how fitness activities and behaviors can affect your mood.

Brannon: Yeah, so, Jennifer, DBT was originally developed by a lady named Marsha Linehan for people who were dealing with borderline personality disorder. We know that with that disorder there's a lot of all-or-nothing thinking, people have a hard time connecting in meaningful ways with other people, they have a hard time managing stress and managing their emotions, and they usually have a lower ability to manage crisis. DBT addresses all of those issues. And the nice thing is that we've learned over the years that DBT is not only useful for borderline personality disorder, but also for chronic depression, anxiety, trauma, and a variety of other issues, bipolar disorder, for example. I've run DBT groups for about 25 years now, and I've seen some tremendous transformations in people's lives when they begin to feel empowered to practice the skills learned in DBT.

How Exercise Affects Mental Health

Alex: That's fascinating, Brannon. So let's draw the thread through to fitness and talk about the science behind how it impacts your mental health. That's something we really like to look at on the podcast: the science behind all of the topics we cover. So how does exercise impact our mental health?

Brannon: Absolutely. The National Institute of Mental Health published an article a while back, and it talks about how exercise reduces anxiety, reduces depression and negative mood, and improves self-esteem and cognitive function. It can also alleviate symptoms of low self-esteem and social withdrawal. So you can see a whole variety of issues that can be impacted by exercise. One of the things I always talk to my clients about, particularly when they're dealing with depression, is the whole idea of self-care. We always talk about sleep, we talk about nutrition, and we talk about exercise. Those are the three big ones I emphasize with my clients when they're dealing with depression, and even anxiety as well. You may be wondering what that looks like in a practical sense for these folks. People who are severely depressed, I try to get them to go outside and take a walk. I'll even tell them, would you please just take a 20-minute walk three times a week? It's actually recommended that we do 30 minutes of exercise three times a week, but I'm just trying to get them moving in a good direction, and hopefully that will be reinforcing, and they'll improve and add some time for that exercise. It's interesting to note that it's three 30-minute sessions, but the research shows it doesn't have to be a continuous 30 minutes. It can be three 10-minute sessions during the day and still give the same benefit. So it's surprising, I think, for some people to realize I can do as little as that and still have effects, and absolutely you can.

Jen: Wow, that's fascinating. Alex, that reminds me of your post on exercise snacks, right?

Alex: Right, where you can go walk up the stairs a few times a day and see some great benefits from it, for example.

Brain and Body: Endorphins and the HPA Axis

Jen: Yeah, wow, that's really encouraging. So, Brannon, tell us a little about the brain-body connection. How does this work? Are there chemicals in your brain that exercise activates, or what's the mechanism by which exercise really helps improve your mood?

Brannon: Yeah, absolutely. When I see people, I talk to them in terms of, hey, you want to get those endorphins moving. You want to get that endorphin or dopamine release in your brain. There are certain chemicals in our brains that are triggered and start working more effectively when we move around. There's also the theory of the HPA axis: the hypothalamus, the pituitary, and the adrenal gland. Exercise impacts that axis, as we call it, and it decreases stress. As a matter of fact, you can see a reduction in trauma symptoms with exercise, because it impacts the amygdala, which is the part of our brain responsible for arousal. So there's a lot going on up there when we just start walking.

How Much Exercise Do We Need?

Alex: That's amazing, Brannon. You mentioned that you can spread this out through the day, so let's talk a bit more about how much exercise we need to get these benefits and see these changes in our chemistry, so to speak. Do we all need to be marathon runners and endurance cyclists, or can you talk a little more in depth about what you generally recommend?

Brannon: Yeah. We're talking about someone who, if you're depressed or really anxious, is probably doing little to no exercise. So the research shows that if you'll at least spend 10 minutes, three 10-minute sessions over the course of a day, you'll see improvement. And that speaks to what you were talking about with going up and down the stairs. I mean, going up and down the stairs for 10 minutes in your home if you don't want to leave your home. But getting someone out into nature, I think, also has some additional benefits. The idea is to do some brisk walking, but if you can just walk at a slower pace, I'm really fine with that. Currently my trainer has me walking; the goal is about 12,000 steps a day. I have one of these Fitbit watches, and at my job I park on one side of the military base and have to walk to the other side, so one way is half my steps. It's like, you're getting your steps in, man. I'm like, absolutely, my watch doesn't lie. So it's nice to get those steps in. And there are so many products out there these days that can help us track our steps; even smartphones will help you track your steps. So that's a good way to gauge, am I getting enough movement in during my day?

Jen: Well, we're pretty nerdy on this podcast, and we actually did a whole blog post on 10,000 steps a day as kind of the magic number. So you're actually a little above that, so, overachieving a little bit, which is great.

Brannon: It really does make a difference in making me feel better. Absolutely.

Stress, Sleep, and Nutrition

Jen: So we've talked about some of the conditions this helps with. I know Alex and I both struggle a bit with anxiety, and we'll talk about that a bit later, and fitness has been really helpful there. But what about stress? Stress management is an issue for pretty much everybody, from a lot of sources, whether you're a parent or at your job. Stress can be really tough to manage. And I know just from my casual science reading that it tends to activate cortisol, that fight-or-flight response we have. So how can exercise help with stress management, particularly?

Brannon: Yeah, it's a good point you make about this whole fight-or-flight response. We have this stored-up energy that just needs to be released in some way. If we don't release it, we start building up that cortisol, which can be a negative for our overall health. So moving around is a way to release that stored energy, that stress. One of the best things you can do when you're stressed is get out and be fairly vigorous with your exercise, because the more vigorous you are, the more you're releasing that stress and working it out. It's an incredible way to release stress. And you sleep a whole lot better at night when you're tired, right? So there's something to be said for exercise, or even hard work during the day, to manage that stress.

Jen: Yeah, absolutely. I want to go back to something you said earlier about other aspects of health, for example diet and sleep. How do these things play a role in our mental health as well?

Brannon: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that over my years working with clients, the number one issue in determining how someone is doing is sleep. Seven to nine hours is generally the amount people need. Then we talk about REM sleep, getting into the deeper level of sleep that's more restorative; that's so important. But when someone tells me they're sleeping too little or too much, or they're having multiple awakenings during the night, that's always not even a yellow flag but a red flag for me that something's not right and we need to investigate further. And then, when we talk about nutrition, I never use the word "diet" with people. I don't ask, "How's your diet going?" I talk about it in terms of nutrition, because nutrition is a much more positive spin, and it doesn't sound like we're depriving ourselves of anything we want. It's a healthy spin on what I think we need to be doing, which is making good nutritional choices that help us maintain our blood sugar and help us with our thinking on higher levels. It's the overall way to care for our bodies with the fuel we're putting in them. Both of those are incredibly important. And to add to that, I normally ask people about their social interaction. Getting out and walking with someone is an incredible way to do it, two birds with one stone, because you're also connecting with another human being when you take a walk with someone. I think that can be an amazing way to improve mood as well.

Jen: I love this idea, Brannon, of framing it as nutrition versus diet. That's something we've talked and written about a lot too: "diet" can be a negative word for a lot of people, and triggering too.

Brannon: It can induce shame, induce guilt. Right. When we talk about nutrition, it's like, oh, that means I have choices about what I get to put in my body. Absolutely, you do.

Jen: Yeah, absolutely. And that ties in so well with what we're doing here, the idea that we can balance these things in our lives and be healthier all around. So, Brannon, I just want to thank you so much for joining us today and sharing some of your wisdom about this really important topic of fitness, exercise, and mental health.

Brannon: Absolutely. It's my pleasure. Thank you both for having me.

Alex: Thanks, Brannon.

Our Takeaways

Jen: Wow, that was such an interesting discussion. I really appreciate a lot of those points. But Alex, I'd like to hear from you. What were some of your big takeaways from that?

Alex: Yeah, I loved what Brannon said about several things. The first was this idea of just getting into a fitness routine, just walking a few times a week, even as a bridge to more activity. He mentioned the recommendation of walking three times a week as a baseline for fitness and how this can have an impact on your mental health, and this is where he starts with his clients. What I also like is that he said, if you can't go outside, do some walking on a treadmill, but this idea of getting outside and how it can help you. I just love that simple concept. It's very practical: walking to begin your fitness journey. I also like that he had a holistic way of thinking about fitness and mental health. Generally when we talk about fitness in regard to mental health, you might think, oh, you're just talking about exercise. But it's this triumvirate of things: diet, exercise, and sleep. All three are very important as part of your fitness routine and in supporting your mental health. And side note, maybe we do a podcast on sleep in the future, because that's an awesome subject. It seems like a simple formula, right? And that's the beauty of it. But at the same time, all three of these things can pose major challenges for people in their lives. So I just really love the way he presented this holistic vision of fitness.

Jen: Absolutely. And it's really all about the mind-body connection, right? All of these things fit together and affect us in many different ways.

Our Stories: First Experiences With Anxiety

Alex: Yeah, absolutely. So, Jen, we heard from Brannon about the science behind how fitness can impact your mental health. We both have anxiety, and we're going to open up about that today on the podcast. So I'm curious: when did you first find out that you had anxiety, and what did it feel like?

Jen: Yeah, definitely. And I want to say before that, I think it's really important to talk about these things. There's historically been a lot of shame in our society about dealing with mental health issues, and a lot of us do, so I think it's important to talk about it.

Alex: Yeah, absolutely. And maybe you're the same way, but I find that when I do open up about this with people, I'm often surprised that they've had similar experiences. If you have anxiety, you're not going through this alone. It's quite common, and it is helpful to open up about it.

Jen: Yeah, absolutely. So for me, it actually started when I was a teenager. I had my first panic attack, and at the time I couldn't even really articulate what I was feeling physically in my body. My heart was just racing. I woke up in the middle of the night with this irrational fear, this thought that I was going to die, right then and there.

Alex: That is a terrible feeling.

Jen: Yeah, it really is. And I was young, I was a teenager, so there's no rationality behind it. I remember waking up my dad and saying, I'm just afraid, I feel like I'm going to die. My dad was great, really reassuring. And I learned that panic attacks were in my family. He shared that with me at that moment: both sides of my family, so I got it from both directions. So definitely part of my family history and genetics. Later on, in my 20s, I had an EKG and a stress test, and I learned that I have an irregular heartbeat. There are many different kinds of irregular heartbeats; mine is premature ventricular contractions. It's the kind that's apparently not that worrisome for doctors, but I will say it's worrisome when you're experiencing them.

Alex: I know the feeling.

Jen: Yeah. My sisters have had this as well, so it's nice that we talk about it pretty openly, and about how it feels. But I've struggled on and off with anxiety ever since then. I've learned over many, many years to manage it through a combination of therapy, meditation, and exercise, but it took me a really long time to figure out the things that could actually help. So what about you, Alex? How did you find out you had anxiety?

Alex: Well, it's really interesting. I don't know that we've ever talked about this in depth between ourselves before, so it's kind of cool. We've talked about our anxiety and so forth, but we never talked about the root of it, and we have a very similar experience. It's amazing; we're learning something new about each other through the podcast today. So I also had the irregular heartbeat. When it first came on, I was playing basketball. I was about 14 or 15. It freaked me out, obviously, out on the court. And at that time, the player for the Boston Celtics, I believe it was Reggie Lewis, had passed away of a heart problem, so that was a very prominent time. As a kid, I'm freaked out by this. And same thing: I went to a cardiologist, a common type of irregular heartbeat, not dangerous, nothing to worry about. That's where it stopped. All I knew was that I had this irregular heartbeat, and the doctor said not to worry about it, even though it feels horrible. Even though you wake up in the middle of the night at some points and feel that feeling of, oh my gosh, I'm going to die. When your heart is not beating at a steady pace, I've not felt anything more scary in my life.

So, fast-forward to my mid to late 20s. Kind of a funny story. I had a neighbor who, let's just say, we didn't get along that well. I'm a pretty nice, chill guy, but whatever it was about this neighbor, he really pushed my buttons. The root of the story is that a big storm came through our area, Dallas, Texas, it happens all the time. It blew over our fence and took shingles off the roof. We had a pretty big insurance claim. The problem was that we have these small backyards with dogs. The fence had blown over and needed to be repaired, and when you have a fence right down the middle of the property line, it's what's called community property. If you're a homeowner, you may have experienced this: you want to go half and half on repairing the fence. And I could not get the guy to put in his half of the money for the fence, which, I can understand, some people have financial challenges; we've all had that. I was young, same thing. But we really needed a fence. It was just an unfortunate situation. He was like, "Oh, I don't care if your dogs come into my yard." It's not that, man. My dogs will escape. I need the fence. And I could not get him to respond. I was calling his house, and eventually one night I had a glass of whiskey and I went over there and banged on the door and confronted him, and finally got the money straightened out for the fence. I think I might have been a little aggressive, which, if you know me, is not my normal. It's not at all. I'm chill, I'm chill, I'm chill, and then my frustration hit this level. But I felt horrible afterward. It felt like my head was on fire, the top of my head, my scalp, my ears were burning. I'd wake up in the night with the irregular heartbeat. The weird thing was that it didn't go away. I felt flushed for the next few days. I felt horrible. I was like, something's wrong with me.

At this point in my life, I did not go see a family doctor. We talk about anxiety, right? I tend to have this medical anxiety as well, and I think it stems from everything I saw with my dad. He had strokes and he had cancer twice, and I know you've had similar experiences. So I finally went to a doctor. I went to a doc-in-the-box, CareNow, as you'd call it. I told him what was going on, and he took my blood pressure and everything, and at the time it was okay. I do have high blood pressure now, again hereditary, but back then it was still okay. And he said, this sounds like anxiety. He gave me a very mild medication, and I stopped having the irregular heartbeat. So then you start to put two and two together and you're like, okay, this heartbeat is a symptom of the anxiety. That's where it came on for me. But even with the medication, the anxiety still pops up from time to time. Like you said, you have to look at a combination of things when it comes to anxiety. A few times in my life I've had panic attacks, I think twice. And the panic attack is really interesting. You said you had one at home, in the middle of the night, the first time. I recall having one at work, and it's just happened the one time. It was weird: no one in the room knows that you're having this. I just felt like, I'm in this meeting, I cannot focus on anything anyone's saying, I just have to get out of here. Everything in my body felt flushed. It's a weird feeling. And what was interesting to me was that no one knew this was occurring except for me.

Jen: Right, absolutely. I think it's that fight-or-flight mechanism that Brannon talked about, right? It's a biological thing telling you, I have to get out of this situation right now. And yeah, it can happen anywhere, at the most inconvenient times.

Alex: Yeah. These days I have not experienced any sort of panic attack for years and years. I'm pretty good on the anxiety front. Every once in a while it bubbles up. Before the pandemic, when I started having trouble with my blood pressure, I knew it was going south, because it was hereditary and my doctor had always said it was going to come on and I would have to monitor my blood pressure. Then I started spiking, and that gave me health anxiety. And Brannon talked about sleep, right? Knowing something's going on when you're having trouble sleeping. For me, at that moment in time, until I went to the doctor about my blood pressure and he put me on a medication, I couldn't sleep, and I was having the irregular heartbeat and things like that. Then as soon as I took care of the root of the problem, it went away. By the way, side note on the health anxiety: for anyone who has that, the best thing you can do is avoid Dr. Google. It's the worst. I have stopped doing that, and it makes a massive difference. Dr. Google is the worst.

Jen: Oh gosh, I have to chime in on that, because health anxiety is a big issue in my family as well. Both my parents passed away from cancer, so there are valid reasons that we worry about our health, but we're also a little bit hypochondriac. And nothing good ever comes from consulting Dr. Google, because no matter what symptom you have, you're going to immediately go to the very worst-case scenario that Google puts in front of you. Yeah, cancer.

Alex: Always cancer.

Jen: Yeah, absolutely. Always. That's always the answer. So yes, I can't say enough: I'm not always disciplined enough to avoid Dr. Google, but there's nothing good that comes from it.

Alex: Yeah, I've gotten a lot better about that. It's hard.

How Fitness Helps Us Manage Anxiety

Alex: So, Jen, we've both dealt with anxiety in our lives, and we've both managed it partially through our fitness routines. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on the ways fitness has helped you mitigate your anxiety.

Jen: Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, it took me a really long time to figure out that exercise could help with anxiety, and with the irregular heartbeat, et cetera. And actually, Alex, you helped me with this a lot. I was having some, I wouldn't say panic attacks, but some of those anxiety symptoms at work, where my heart was beating really fast. I remember you and I used to work out together sometimes, and I would think, oh, I'm just going to skip a workout because I'm having this symptom. And you encouraged me that it could actually help, and it does. There's science behind that: it can break the chain of that fight-or-flight response, exactly like Brannon was describing. The cortisol and these chemicals are building up, and if you give them an outlet by doing some vigorous cardio, it actually can help a lot. So I appreciate your help with that. You learn from each other, right? Over time I've also learned that if I maintain a regular exercise practice, it helps me avoid the frequency of these symptoms as well. But beyond the actual management of anxiety, I like to say that running fixes everything. This is one of my core beliefs. I joke about it, but I've found that exercise has helped me deal with some of the most difficult psychological times in my life. My dad was first diagnosed with cancer pretty suddenly and out of the blue. I remember just the shock of that knowledge; at that time they thought he had terminal cancer, which he eventually did. I couldn't get my head around it, and I just went on a run, a pretty long run, and over the course of that, I was able to come to terms with what was going on on a psychological level. So that's one example. Since then, I went through a pretty tough breakup during the pandemic, and I just decided on a cold February day to go run 16 miles. I felt a lot better afterwards.

Alex: So it's not just breaking the chain of fight or flight. It's really like a spiritual experience, getting out and being alone and having time to think. That's why I think what Brannon said about getting outside is really important.

Jen: Exactly. It had to be outside. I remember so vividly that run, feeling the cold air and just being outside. All of that together. And then of course there's just the run-of-the-mill stress management. I think there's nothing like going to a boxing class and hitting a heavy bag for 45 minutes to work out a stressful day, you know? How about you, Alex? How has exercise helped you manage stress and anxiety?

Alex: Yeah, I think it's very similar. It's interesting: before I knew I had the anxiety, in my early to mid-20s, I would get that irregular heartbeat, always in the middle of the night. It never failed, and this would happen pretty frequently, maybe once a week. Again, it's that horrible feeling where you feel like you're going to die. Even though my rational brain knows I've had this condition evaluated and it's not going to hurt me, there's nothing you can do in that situation to talk yourself out of it. This does not feel good; this feels bad, like I'm going to die. So the weird thing I figured out that would help with that irregular heartbeat in the middle of the night, because it's not like I would go out in the middle of the night for a three- or four-mile run. I could do that in the day, right? Or I guess I could have, but it's probably not the best idea at night, because you do need to get some sleep, and I'm trying to get back to rest quickly. So I had a pull-up bar in my office, and I would just walk down the hall and start doing pull-ups, intense pull-ups. I was like, wow, this stops it. So it's kind of weird: in the middle of the night, I'd just do several sets of intense pull-ups, and then I would feel better and kind of break that heartbeat. It's almost like it got it beating in the right rhythm again.

Jen: Like you said, breaking that fight-or-flight response.

Alex: But again, once I found out what was going on and went to a doctor, and by the way, that led me to realize, hey, I really do need to have a family doctor and go regularly, I got on the straight and narrow after that and was going on a yearly basis for my checkup. But it's really this multifaceted approach to countering the anxiety. I mentioned the medication. Things like meditation help. Even getting a massage can reduce your anxiety or help with stress management. Also being around my wife now really helps me. For me that has been the biggest thing in the past few years: just being around her reduces my anxiety. So I really like what Brannon said about getting out with a friend or partner and going walking, because I've definitely had that experience recently with you and other fitness friends. So it's this holistic thing where exercise is one of the tools in your toolbox for managing anxiety, along with these other aspects of your fitness and the things Brannon talked about. I definitely had the same experience as you with going out on a run. That really would help me. I even found that when I would have spells of intensity with anxiety, it might take a few days of running in a row to really kick the feeling. But it's one of the most central things in helping manage the anxiety. I would often turn to fitness when the anxiety broke through the medications and other things I was doing. These days, if I'm feeling that way and it crops up from time to time, a long bike ride is amazing, because it's the same concept you mentioned with the 16-mile run. You get out in nature, you can be free with your thoughts, you feel the wind rushing against your face, and it awakens different senses and different feelings in your body. You could go for a hike, you could go for a trail run, anything where you're really getting out into nature. I think of it as really meditative or mindful, focusing on nature, focusing on your surroundings. So again, I go back to what Brannon said. I really like that about getting outside, because I think that's a key component of your fitness. It's not just exercise; it's getting out, communing with nature, and getting out of this anxious mindset. So that's how it helps me.

Jen: Yeah, and in addition to that, I think mindfulness is really one of those keys. I wanted to go all the way back to the type of therapy Brannon practices, the DBT I talked about, dialectical behavioral therapy. It really focuses on mindfulness as one of the core components, because mindfulness, all those things you described, Alex, helps you get into the present moment and get out of ruminating about the past or the future, which a lot of times is a source of our anxiety, right?

Wrap-Up

Alex: Well, that was a great discussion, Jen. It was really amazing having Brannon as our first guest on the show, all the way from Bahrain, so our first interview was done halfway around the world, which is really cool, and the beauty of digital media in 2023. Amazing discussion with you, too. It's great to me that we can learn things about each other going through the podcast. We've talked about our anxiety before, but there were some things in there I learned about you today, so that was really cool. I hope others enjoyed the discussion. If you have stories you want to share, please head over to practically.fit. You can comment on the podcast and subscribe to our newsletter. If you have thoughts or ideas you'd like to share, shoot me an email at alex@practically.fit. So, what are we going to talk about on the next episode, Jen?

Jen: Kind of going along with this theme of mindfulness, I thought we might talk about the joys of walking and hiking, and how this can be an important and helpful part of your fitness practice, and enjoyable as well. So, yeah, let's talk about that.

Alex: All right. So that'll be our topic next week. Until then, remember: fitness is for everybody.