> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://www.practically.fit/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # PF Episode 32: Don’t Snooze on Your Need for Sleep - URL: https://www.practically.fit/pf-episode-32-dont-snooze-on-your/ - Published: 2023-07-21T12:03:41.000Z - Updated: 2026-08-23T21:43:35.000Z - Author: Alex Johnson - Tags: Podcast, #Migrated-1786808468945, #Import 2026-08-15 15:41 In this episode, Alex and Jen talk about sleep. What impact does sleep (or lack thereof) have on your health? How much sleep do you actually need? And can exercise help you sleep better? Jen and Alex answer these questions, plus Jen recounts her bizarre experience in a strip mall sleep lab. Looking for the results of this episode’s experiment? According to Jen and Alex, both slept about the same amount as normal after one alcoholic beverage (consumed while recording this episode), with \*slightly\* lower overall sleep quality scores. #### Read The Transcript ****Jen:** Welcome to Practically Fit, Real Fitness Over 40\. I'm Jen Chamberlain. ****Alex:** And I'm Alex Johnson. ****Jen:** And today we're going to talk about sleep. What impact does sleep, or lack thereof, have on your health? How much do you need? And how can exercise help you sleep better? ****Alex:** Yeah, Jen, I'm excited for this episode. This is one we talk about in my household quite often, because sometimes both my wife and I don't get a good night's sleep, and we notice the effects the next day — things like not feeling as sharp at work, sometimes even feeling fuzzy, or disoriented, just not all there. ****Jen:** Totally. ****Alex:** A lack of sleep can really impact you the next day, but there can also be long-term effects, and we'll talk about that today. There are various things that can impact sleep too — like, for example, alcohol. The Whiskey and Wine Experiment ****Jen:** Oh, yeah, definitely — that's one. And on that topic, we're doing a little experiment tonight. Alex and I are enjoying one of our favorite beverages, and we're going to see how it impacts our sleep. ****Alex:** That's right. We thought we'd have some fun with a podcast about sleep, and have a drink while we do it. So, I'm having whiskey. Jen, what are you having? ****Jen:** I'm having a fancy red wine from Spain. ****Alex:** Oh, sounds very good. So we'll do an experiment and see if the alcohol impacts our sleep tonight, since we're recording around 9:30 p.m. Central — about 7:30 p.m. Pacific, where Jen is. We'll let you know in the podcast description how our sleep turned out, in terms of actual hours slept and quality. ****Jen:** Quality, quality, absolutely — because we do believe on this podcast that you should be able to eat and drink things you enjoy, as long as your overall diet is reasonably healthy. So we'll see how this goes. ****Alex:** And that includes whiskey. ****Jen:** Exactly — and Pinot Noir. ****Alex:** Pinot Noir, yeah. So, like we were saying earlier — a lack of sleep can impact the next day, you may not feel great at work. But what about the long-term effects of not getting enough sleep, Jen? What did you find when you were researching that? Why Sleep Matters ****Jen:** Yeah, absolutely. So, it's interesting — my general practitioner actually likes to say that sleep is "foundational." I'm probably butchering how she says it, she has a really catchy phrase for it, but basically her point is: if you don't get enough sleep, your overall health suffers in a lot of ways — it's like the foundation of your good health. And the science really backs this up. In 2021, the American Academy of Sleep Medicine put out a position statement in the Journal of Clinical Sleep Medicine — there's a whole journal dedicated to this topic. ****Alex:** Well, I have to say — a position statement. This is the first time we've ever cited a position statement on the podcast. ****Jen:** It's a first for the podcast — a position statement, exactly. So, quoting here, since this is serious: "Sleep is a biological necessity, and insufficient sleep and untreated sleep disorders are detrimental for health, well-being, and public safety." That last part was interesting to me — public safety. ****Alex:** Yeah, I can see that. ****Jen:** Right? So, some specific examples — overall health, mental well-being, cognitive functioning, which is what you were talking about, Alex, how well your brain works the next day after a lack of sleep. And then public safety, since accidents and injuries can be caused by insufficient sleep. So let me give you a couple of examples I'm sure you've heard of — the Exxon Valdez oil spill, and the Chernobyl nuclear disaster. Both are thought to have been at least partially caused by sleep-deprived operators. ****Alex:** Oh, wow — I need to go back and watch that HBO miniseries on Chernobyl. I was watching part of it, but I don't remember the sleep-deprivation angle. That's really interesting. ****Jen:** Yeah, really interesting — huge consequences. So, quoting again: "Chronic insufficient sleep is associated with an increased risk of mortality, and contributes to both the individual risk and societal burden associated with several medical epidemics, including cardiovascular disease, diabetes, obesity, and cancer." That's a pretty scary list. And sleep researchers say, to avoid these problems, you need both adequate quality and quantity of sleep — so I thought we'd dig into that a bit. ****Alex:** Yeah, we'll talk about the quantity of sleep in a moment. I think what stands out to me about sleep is — sometimes, when we research these different topics for the podcast, related to health or wellness or fitness, you can draw a pretty clean line to one particular downside of something. But with sleep, it's just everything — it impacts everything. It's not like we can point to one specific harm; it's bad for everything if you're not getting enough of it. I think about it with my own high blood pressure — a bad night's sleep can raise your blood pressure the next day, and that's just one thing. You heard the list — diabetes, cardiovascular disease, obesity, cancer — these medical epidemics, not to mention radiation fallout spreading across multiple continents. You've got to get sleep. How Much Sleep Do You Need ****Jen:** That's right. So, how much sleep do we really need, Alex? Oh, wait, I think I know the answer — it's eight hours, right? ****Alex:** That's what you always heard growing up, right — you must get eight hours of sleep. So I looked into it, and there are a lot of different sources on this. There's the National Sleep Foundation, and they say adults ages 25 to 64 should get seven to nine hours of sleep — so eight is right in the middle. If you're over 65, the National Sleep Foundation says seven to eight hours, so they back it off a bit. They had a chart with some acceptable ranges on either side of that too, depending on factors personal to you — I've heard people say, "oh, I only sleep five or six hours a night and I'm fine." But generally, they're saying a median of seven to nine hours for ages 25 to 64\. The Sleep Foundation of Australia — not to be outdone by the National Sleep Foundation, which is US-based — also says seven to nine hours. Same thing. Then I found another sleep foundation — not the National Sleep Foundation, who knew there were so many of these — this one's run by a company called OneCare Media, whatever that means. They say adults should get seven hours or more — they don't give a range, just "at least seven." And the Mayo Clinic, obviously a well-respected source, says the same thing: seven hours or more. So what I took away from all these different sources is that we should be getting at least seven hours of sleep a night. ****Jen:** Okay, that makes sense. And, you know, just like we found with the water recommendations, apparently there's a range — it's not some exact number like eight hours on the dot. That tracks with a lot of the other topics we've looked into. ****Alex:** So, Jen — seven hours. Do you get seven hours of sleep a night? ****Jen:** I do get seven hours a night. This is one area where I excel. ****Alex:** Do you have a general range? Do you get eight, do you get nine? What's your range? ****Jen:** It's seven to nine, I'd say — right in there. So if you're trying to compete with me on this, Alex, I think you're going to lose every time. I'm nailing the sleep game. ****Alex:** No, I'm happy if I get seven hours. If I get eight or nine, I'm ecstatic. Do you sleep in at all on the weekend? ****Jen:** No, I don't — that's actually something I don't do. I've read it's not that great for you anyway — if you sleep in for a long time on weekends, you're probably sleep-deprived the rest of the week and just catching up, which isn't great for your body. But I'll admit I have an unfair advantage — I don't have kids, just a dog to take care of, and I'm not bothered by sensory stuff. I don't care if there are sirens outside or whatever, I can sleep through anything. It's my superpower. ****Alex:** Yeah, that's great. I do okay — I'd say I'm a light sleeper, but usually I'm happy with seven hours. Sometimes we do sleep in on the weekends. The funny thing I've noticed is, if you sleep in on a Sunday, you don't sleep well that night. ****Jen:** Yeah, that's right, that's a problem. ****Alex:** Yeah, and I think it's partly that you've slept in and your body doesn't feel like it needs sleep yet, but also you're thinking about the work week ahead. Sunday's always my worst night of sleep anyway, but I've noticed if I sleep in on Sunday, it's definitely not going to be a good night. So Sunday's always a good day to get up early and go do some exercise — go for a bike ride, get it out of the way early — or wake up at 6 a.m. for an Arsenal game. ****Jen:** Or run at 6, since in Dallas you have to run that early just to beat the heat. ****Alex:** Yeah, exactly. ****Jen:** Well, I will say, we're the exception here, Alex, because most people aren't getting anywhere near that much sleep. One of the things I wanted to look at was the impact of exercise on sleep, since obviously our busy lifestyles can be part of why we don't get enough sleep. But there's also — and I'll admit I'm guilty of this — times when I have the best intentions, go to bed on time, wake up in the middle of the night, and just can't fall back asleep, or I can't fall asleep quickly to begin with. That's something I definitely struggle with. I found a couple of articles about this — about insomnia, which is the inability to either fall asleep or stay asleep. One in particular I found really interesting, titled "The Bidirectional Relationship Between Exercise and Sleep: Implications for Exercise Adherence and Sleep Improvement," in the American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine — which, I don't know, I found that title kind of funny. What is "lifestyle medicine"? Apparently there's a whole journal dedicated to it. Exercise and Sleep: A Two-Way Street ****Alex:** "Lifestyle medicine" — sounds trendy, but I'm sure it's a very serious journal. ****Jen:** Yes, it is a serious journal, I just found the title funny. Anyway, it had some interesting statistics — including that 30% of employed adults report getting six or fewer hours of sleep a night, and about a third of all adults report sleep complaints. So again, you and I, Alex, are kind of the exception here. ****Alex:** Well — do we think that's because we exercise? ****Jen:** It might be — hold that thought. According to the article, there's a growing body of evidence that exercise contributes to better sleep, especially for people with insomnia. The results were more mixed for people who don't have insomnia, who don't have sleep problems to begin with — not much evidence either way for them. But for people who do struggle in this area, exercise really helped. The interesting thing to me, though, was that the study found the reverse is also true — poor sleep can hamper people's efforts to be physically active. Several of the studies the authors reviewed found that, in general, adults with poor sleep were less active than similar adults without sleep complaints. So it's bidirectional, like the title says — it works both ways. And I've definitely found that to be true myself. If I'm having a hard time sleeping, it's hard to muster the energy to get through my workout the next day. ****Alex:** And then it's almost a self-reinforcing spiral, right — you're tired, so you don't want to exercise, so you don't exercise, and then you don't sleep well again. It can spiral if you fall into that pattern. ****Jen:** Yeah, exactly. But the other thing I was curious about — does the timing of workouts matter? Because for me, I do sleep better after working out, but sometimes when I work out late in the evening, I have a hard time falling asleep. Is there any science on that? Does Workout Timing Matter? ****Alex:** As a matter of fact, there is. Fewer studies have looked specifically at the timing of exercise and sleep, but we found one titled "Effects of Vigorous Late-Night Exercise on Sleep Quality and Cardiac Autonomic Activity," in the Journal of Sleep Research — a whole journal dedicated to sleep research, which sounds even more prestigious to me than "lifestyle medicine." If we're looking for sleep information, this seems like the place to go. The researchers monitored 11 physically active adults in a sleep lab. By the way — have you ever wanted to do a sleep study? ****Jen:** I've actually done one. ****Alex:** You've done a sleep lab? ****Jen:** I've done one — I was hoping we'd get to talk about that. ****Alex:** Okay, let's digress here, since we're drinking on the podcast anyway. We have to hear this. Tell me about the sleep lab. ****Jen:** Oh, it's such a bizarre experience. I went because I was having a hard time — I felt sleepy during the day, and I wondered if I wasn't getting good-quality sleep, even though I was getting enough quantity. So my doctor recommended a sleep lab. It's so weird — this one was basically in a strip mall. You go in the middle of the night, right around your normal bedtime, they have you put on a gown, and then they hook you up to all these sensors and wires — cords coming off your head and chest — and then you're supposed to just lie down and sleep like it's a normal night, while they monitor you. ****Alex:** That begs the question — how do you sleep normally if you're completely wired up like that? I don't think I could do it. ****Jen:** Yeah — you have to buzz them if you need to get up and use the restroom, because they actually have to help you carry all your wires along with you. ****Alex:** Whoa, whoa, wait a minute — so somebody's job is literally, "I work at a sleep lab," working a reversed schedule, going in at night — ****Jen:** Well, yeah, obviously — there has to be someone there to help you. ****Alex:** Wow. ****Jen:** There's somebody on the other side of a glass window, monitoring your vital signs, ready to help if you need to get up in the middle of the night. It's such a bizarre experience — honestly, one I never want to repeat. But I did the whole thing, slept through the night, got up the next morning, got dressed, and went to work after this very strange, surreal night with strangers in a sleep lab. I got my results a couple of weeks later, and I was right on the border of not getting great sleep quality. At the time I had a little bit of sleep apnea, which was affecting my breathing at night — a pretty common issue — but not severe enough that I needed treatment, which was good. I just decided I'd try a bit harder to wind down earlier in the evening, and that's where it ended. But yeah, a very bizarre experience. ****Alex:** Now — I'm a side sleeper. Would I even be able to do a sleep study? Would the wires get all tangled up if I'm sleeping on my side? ****Jen:** No, you'd probably be fine, unless you start rolling around a lot and get yourself twisted up in the wires. ****Alex:** I bet the people working at the sleep lab are glad to have smartphones now, because that strikes me as a very boring job. ****Jen:** So boring. ****Alex:** No offense — it's just interesting to think about. I'd genuinely never thought about it that deeply before. Okay, so — back to the Journal of Sleep Research. The researchers monitored those 11 physically active adults in the sleep lab, and measured their sleep quality after vigorous late-night exercise, versus a control day with no exercise. They found the late-night exercise had no real impact on the subjects' sleep quality — though their heart rates were higher during the first three hours of sleep. So it sounds like the late-night exercise didn't actually stop them from sleeping. ****Jen:** That's right, and this is so interesting to me, because there are a lot of articles out there on the internet claiming that exercising too late at night will hurt your sleep. And apparently this study found that it really didn't — I think it's probably pretty individual, in terms of how it affects each person, but maybe it's not as big a deal as people think. It is interesting, though, that finding about heart rate — it makes sense your heart rate would be a bit elevated, but apparently they were still able to fall asleep just fine. Have you noticed anything like that with yourself? I know you track this kind of thing. ****Alex:** Yeah, actually, I have. There have been a few times I've done something really intense later in the evening — a few months ago, I did a race on Zwift, a short one, but really intense. You get up toward max heart rate for an extended stretch in those races, or at least I do. Those types of workouts are few and far between, since you don't want to be pushing your heart rate that hard too often — it's a race, it's fun, but you don't want to be doing that all the time. When I do something like that, I do notice it takes a while for my heart rate to come down, and that one time I did it late in the evening, I actually saw it bleed into my sleep data. ****Jen:** Oh, interesting. ****Alex:** I found this research really interesting — we did a podcast a while back on anxiety, and talked about our own experiences there. There have been times I've done vigorous late-night exercise because I couldn't sleep — my heart was racing, or I was feeling irregular somehow — so whether that meant doing pull-ups until my heart rate evened out, or actually going out at midnight to run — I love running at night. The downside is you might trip or hurt yourself, but I've always loved running at night, even into the woods where it's dark. I get a real rush out of it. There have been rare times where I just feel like I need some exercise, I'm anxious or stressed, and I'll go do it late, late in the evening, even at midnight — and I sleep great afterward. So yeah, I found this research to line up pretty accurately with my own experience. ****Jen:** That's great — and that's an interesting takeaway for me too, because, like I said, I don't usually have trouble sleeping, but those times I wake up and can't get back to sleep are really frustrating. It's usually my brain working through some problem, and I just can't stop thinking about it. Sometimes I'll get up and read, but maybe next time I'll get up and do a few push-ups instead, and see if that resets my brain a bit and helps me relax. Might be worth experimenting with. Tracking Sleep ****Alex:** Yeah, something to experiment with, for sure. Do you do the sleep tracking on your watch? ****Jen:** I do. And sometimes I go down this whole rabbit hole of, "why is that phase of sleep like that?" But it's pretty consistent over time — my sleep patterns are pretty steady, which I figure is just individual to me. And as long as I'm not tired the next day, I guess it's working. ****Alex:** Yeah, I'll admit to being a little addicted to sleep tracking these days — and I've noticed my wife does the same thing. We'll get up in the morning, and the first thing we check is our sleep score, and we always compare. It's fun. Sometimes it matches how you actually feel, and other times you look at the score and think, "I slept amazingly last night, what's going on with this number, it's not as high as it should be." But yeah, I get a kick out of sleep tracking — I think it gives you a general sense of trends over time. I've noticed, for instance, that when I have alcohol late in the evening, like we're doing right now, my heart rate stays a bit elevated into the early morning hours. So, we'll let you know how tonight's experiment goes, and how we sleep after just one drink late in the evening. But yeah, I found this research to be really accurate. And I think it's interesting how much easier it is to see all this now that we have smartwatches to track it — when we were younger, we couldn't do any of that. ****Jen:** Exactly. And I think if there's one takeaway here, it's that sleep is absolutely foundational to your health. It's important — if you're not getting enough, it might be worth talking to your doctor, since it really can have a big impact on your health and well-being. So I think sleep is a genuinely important topic. Takeaways ****Alex:** Yeah, and again, exercise is important for helping you sleep — so if you're not getting regular exercise and you're having trouble sleeping, that's something worth looking into. Good takeaways. I don't think we're doing practical tips this week, since neither of us claims to be a sleep expert, and honestly, it's the kind of thing you'd find all over the internet anyway if you searched "how can I sleep better" — do meditation, don't look at a screen for the four hours before bed, that kind of thing. All important. Spray some lavender on your pillow. ****Jen:** That's right. ****Alex:** All right — great podcast this week on sleep, Jen. Really enjoyed chatting about this, and looking forward to the next one. We will have a podcast next week — we'll go ahead and say it. After that, we'll be taking a bit of a break for a few weeks. But look forward to another episode next week. If you haven't been over to practically.fit — we did a new piece on how gardening is good for your soul, told through a bit of a personal story, and it's been super popular, which has been really nice to see. If you want to comment on the podcast, or read more of our work, head on over to practically.fit. And as always, if you've got comments, feel free to email us too, at [alex@practically.fit](mailto:alex@practically.fit). So that's it for this week — until next time, remember, fitness is for everybody.